Questions...

Nooo noo he never said that.. I was trying to figure something out when someone asked a question and they mentioned ta'weel.. =o sorry.. but the definition of tahreef is correct right?

Ibn As-Sahaaba wrote:

Admin what do you say concerning the hands of Allah, his eyes etc. ?

Yadullaahi laysa ka aydeenaa.

Hey you can't speak in Arabic in front of me because I don't understand it. =/

and okay I'm confused about what you're saying about where Allah is.. =o

Nisaa wrote:

You have to affirm them because Allah says so in the Qur'an right? But you can't ask how they are..

Absolutely

However on the topic of affirmation, i gotta make a thread on ummah about it, you see the salafis say the salaf made tafweedh al kayf, whereas an ash'ari told me that the salaf made tafweedh al ma'na, so i want both groups to give me their proofs for their views so i can see.

I don't know the difference between the two..

Quote :

but the definition of tahreef is correct right?

Depends on what you understand from it, because i see two possible meanings for it.

Quote :

Hey you can't speak in Arabic in front of me because I don't understand it. =/

Sorra baaj, ah won't do it again

Quote :

and okay I'm confused about what you're saying about where Allah is.. =o

Allaah exists without a place, because Allaah is not like the creation, creations exists in place, and place itself is a creation, so if you say that Allaah exists in a place then you are giving Allaah a shape, after all to exist in a place you must have a size of some sort, plus you're negating the Aayah where Allaah says "there is no likenes unto Him" if you say that Allaah exists in a place, and so on the argument goes.

Quote :

Yadullaahi laysa ka aydeenaa.

Saheeh...

Anta Ash'ari fil Aqeedah?

Quote :

I don't know the difference between the two..

Tafweedh al ma'na is to affirm the attribute and leave its meaning (and howness) unto Allaah.

Tafweedh al kayf is to affirm the attribute and give it a meaning, but leave the howness of it to Allaah.

Does that make sense or should i explain further?

Ibn As-Sahaaba wrote:

Quote :

Yadullaahi laysa ka aydeenaa.

Saheeh...

Anta Ash'ari fil Aqeedah?

I'm not quite sure just yet, only when i've studied all there is to know about aqeedah will i see if i fit into a group.

Ah.. I see..

But give me an example for each..

You know I only know literal.. like I didn't know there were two kinds.. like what you said for tahreef too.. =o Is that knowledge someone like me should have?

Quote :

So you believe Allaah exists in a place?

It is proven in the Qur’an and Sunnah and by the ijmaa’ of the salaf of this ummah that Allah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that, He is above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him.

Saying that Allaah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with use by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the ayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50]

most of the mufassireen said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).

Quote :

It is proven in the Qur’an and Sunnah and by the ijmaa’ of the salaf of this ummah that Allah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that, He is above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him.

I would just like to see the proof from the books of the salaf or the khalaf up till 3 centuries back, which says that Allaah is physically (bidhaatihi) above the 'arsh.

Because Imaam Abdul Qaahir al Baghdaadi who passed away in 429 a.h states that there is Ijmaa' that Allaah exists without a place, here's a scan in of the page,

Admin wrote:

That translation is not good, Allaah does not get amazed, amazed is a word that's no befitting to use for Allaah, atleast the way i understand it anyhow.

These is all what I have on it:

Another hadith: Your Lord is amazed at a youth which doesn’t have any desires or any passions to do evil (paraphrased) What does the word amazed mean over here? it has two meanings

• Allah is amazed in the sense that Allah is ignorant. That is the incorrect understanding
  
• Allah is amazed in the sense that this person has done something that is unlike to what his peers do. This is the correct understanding and we affirm this literally.

But the thing is I still don't understand it.. so I was wondering if you could explain it to me? I understand the incorrect understanding, that's logical because Allah knows everything and the first meaning would have to be incorrect. But maybe you're right, maybe the word amazed isn't right and that's why it is confusing me... what word would be accurate?

Quote :

I would just like to see the proof from the books of the salaf or the khalaf up till 3 centuries back, which says that Allaah is physically (bidhaatihi) above the 'arsh.

‘Ali ibn al-Hasan ibn Shaqeeq, the shaykh of al-Bukhaari, said:

I said to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak: How do we know our Lord?

He said: [He is] in the seventh heaven above His Throne. According to another version: [He is] above the seventh heaven above His Throne, and we do not say as the Jahamiyyah do, that He is here on earth.

That was said to Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and he said: This is how we understand it.

Imam al-Dhahabi said, commenting on this report:

This is saheeh and proven from Thaabit ibn al-Mubaarak and Ahmad (may Allaah be pleased with them both). The words ‘in heaven’ in another report explain to you that what he meant by saying ‘in heaven’ was ‘above the heaven’, as in the other saheeh report which he wrote to Yahya ibn Mansoor al-Faqeeh.
Al-‘Arsh 2/189

We will quote here the words of the scholars which explained and clarified this matter:

Al-Haafiz Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

With regard to the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): “Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven [fi’l-sama’] (Allaah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, and then it should quake” [al-Mulk 67], what it means is the One Who is above the heaven, i.e., above the Throne. The word fi [in the phrase fi’l-sama’ (translated above as ‘over the heaven’); fi literally means ‘in’] may mean ‘ala [above, over]. Haven’t you seen the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So travel freely (O Mushrikoon) for four months (as you will) throughout the land [fi’l-ard]” [al-Tawbah 9], meaning on the land; and the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning): “and I will surely, crucify you on the trunks of date palms [fi judhoo’ al-nakhl]” [Ta-Ha 20].

Al-Tamheed, 7/130

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The salaf, the imams and all the scholars of the Sunnah, when they say that He is above the Throne, He is in heaven above all things, do not mean that there is something which contains Him or surrounds Him, or that He has a location, or that there is something that encompasses Him. Exalted be He above that. Rather He is above all things, He has no need of all things, and all things are in need of Him. He is above all things, He is the One Who carries the Throne and its bearers by His power and might. All created beings are in need of Him, but He has no need of the Throne or of any created being.

With regard to what it says in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, “Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven [fi’l-sama’]…?” [al-Mulk 67] and so on, some people may understand the word heaven as being the same as the created heaven on high or the Throne and what is beneath it, so they say that His words “in heaven (fi’l-sama’)” mean that He is above the heaven, as the words “and I will surely, crucify you on the trunks of date palms [fi judhoo’ al-nakhl]” [Ta-Ha 20] mean on the trunks of date palms, and the words “So travel freely (O Mushrikoon — see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land[ fi’l-ard]” [al-Tawbah 9] mean on the land.

There is no need for that; rather the word sama’ (often translated as heaven) refers to what is up high, and does not apply to any specific thing. So the words fi’l-sama’ [translated above as ‘in heaven’] apply to that which is up high as opposed to being low or down.

He is high and the highest, and He is the Highest of the high; there is nothing beyond the Most High, may He be glorified and exalted.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (16/100-101)

You must have heard of this Hadeeth about the young slave girl, to whom the Prophet said: "Where is Allaah?" She said: "In heaven" He asked, "Who am I?" She said, "The Messenger of Allaah." So he said to her master: "Set her free, for she is a believer."

This young girl was uneducated, as many are, and she was a slave, but she knew that her Lord is above heaven. Some misguided people deny that Allaah is above heaven, and say, "He is neither above nor below; neither to the right nor to the left. He is everywhere!" SubhaanAllah!

Heck, even Fir'awn, the enemy of Allaah who disputed with Musa about his Lord (forget this Muslim girl), told his minister Haamaan : "O Haamaan! Build me a tower that I may arrive at the ways, - the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the god of Musa . . ." [Ghaafir 40-37]

So this is why the Salaf used to say: "We affirm Allah's Attributes :

. without Ta'teel - denying the meaning
. without Tahreef - distorting the meaning
. without Tashbeeh - likening to the creation
. without Takyeef - asking how?"

Abu Bakr (radhi allahu anhu): Abdullah Ibn Umar (radhi allahu anhu) reported: “When the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) was taken (passed away). Abu Bakr (radhi allahu anhu) entered and kissed his (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) forehead and said: “May my father and mother be sacrificed on you! You were good in life and in death.” Then he remarked: “He who worshiped Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam), then Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) is dead. (But) he, who worships Allah, then Allah is above the sky, He lives and does not die. [Reported by ad-Daarimee in ar-Radd ‘alal Jahmiyyah, with a hasan isnaad.]

Imam Malik (d.179H): Abdullah Ibn Naafi reported that Malik Ibn Anas (rahimahullah) said: “Allah is above the sky and His Knowledge is in every place, not being absent from anything.” [Reported by Abdullah Ibn Ahmad in As-Sunnah (p.5), Aboo Dawood in al-Masaa’il (p.263), Al-Aajuree in ash-Sharee’ah (p. 289) and al-Laalikaa’ee (1/92/2).]

Imam Muhammad Ibn Idrees ash-Shafi’ee (d. 204H): Abu Thawr and Abu Shuaib both reported that ash-Shafi’ee said: “The saying which I found and hold regarding the Sunnah, those which I have seen Sufyan, Malik and others believing in are; ‘the testification, ‘None has the right to be worshiped but Allah and Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) is the Messenger of Allah’, Allah is above His Throne over the Heavens, He draws near to His creation as He wishes and descends to the lowest Heaven as He wishes....” [ Mukhtasar al-’Uluww, by adh-Dhahabi]

Imam Ahmad Ibn Hambal (d. 241H): It was said to Abu Abdullah (Imam Ahmad): “Allah is above the seventh Heaven, over His Throne, separate from His creation. His Power and Knowledge are in every place.” He said, “Yes, He is above the Throne and His Knowledge is in every place.” [Reported by al-Khallaal in al-Mukhtasar.]

Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah writes, ‘the early generations of Muslims and their Imams were in complete and unanimous agreement that the Lord is separate and distinct from His creation.’ [‘Al-Furqaan bayna Awliya ar-Rahmaan wa-Awliya ash-Shaytaan’ by Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah on p.111.]


Also Ibn Abdul Barr said: "Ahl us-Sunnah are agreed in affirming all the Sifaat (Attributes) which are related in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, having eemaan (faith) in them and understanding them alal-haqeeqah (in a real sense), not alal-majaaz (metaphorically)." [At-Tamheed of Ibn Abdul-Barr (7/145) ]

Abdul-Qaadir al-Jeelaanee said: "It is essential to carry the attribute of Allaah al-Istiwaa (Allaah's Ascending) upon its apparent sense - without ta'weel, and that He ascended by His Dhaat (self) over the Throne. Istiwaa does not mean sitting or touching - as the Mujassimah and Karraamiyyah say. Nor does it mean uluww (grandeur and highness) - as the Ash'ariyyah say; nor does it mean isteelaa (conquering and dominating over) - as the Mu'tazilah say. None of this is related in the Sharee'ah. Neither has this been related by any one of the Salaf us-Saalih (Pious Predecessors) from the Sahaabah and the Taabi'een, nor from the Ashaabul-Hadeeth (Scholars of Hadeeth). Rather, it is related from them that they carried the meaning of Istiwaa with its apparent meaning." [Al-Ghuniyat ut-Taalibeen (1/50) of Abdul Qaadir al-Jeelaanee. ]

Al-Khattaabee said: "The position of the Salaf (the Pious Predecessors) with regard to the Sifaat (Attributes of Allaah) is to affirm them as they are alaa dhaahir (with their apparent meaning), negating any tashbeeh (resemblance) to them, nor takyeef (asking how they are)." [Al-Ghuniyah an Kalaam wa Ahlihi - as quoted in Mukhtasir al-Uluww by adh-Dhahabi (no.137). ]

Imaam at-Tirmidhee said: "It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) to the Attributes of Allaah, and our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: "Affirm these narrations, have eemaan (faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how." The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth: "Leave them as they are, without asking how." Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from the Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh! However, Allaah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-Yad (Hand), as-Sama' (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta'weel of these aayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: "Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand" - they say that Hand means the Power of Allaah." [Sunan at-Tirmidhee (3/24) ]

And this suffices I think (?)

Wallahu A3lam

What's the source.. like what website or book?

You see your article refutes your view, see it says:

Quote :

The salaf, the imams and all the scholars of the Sunnah, when they say that He is above the Throne, He is in heaven above all things, do not mean that there is something which contains Him or surrounds Him, or that He has a location, or that there is something that encompasses Him. Exalted be He above that.

Quote :

This young girl was uneducated, as many are, and she was a slave, but she knew that her Lord is above heaven. Some misguided people (e.g. the Ash'aris) deny that Allaah is above heaven, and say, "He is neither above nor below; neither to the right nor to the left. He is everywhere!" SubhaanAllah!

What a load of nonsense, if there's one thing i hate it's liars, and this person is an outright liar.

My mistake...

Well then he knows absolutely nothing about ash'aris, because i have studied by ash'aris, and not a single one beleives that Allaah is everywhere, in fact they all refute those who believe that Allaah is everywhere.

This is the problem of today, both ash'aris and salafis are happy to live in ignorance and bash each other for beliefs which neither party holds, ash'aris bash salafis for believing that Allaah has a body and that's not the case, and you've just seen the example of salafis believing something about ash'aris that isn't true either.

If salafis and ash'aris had to come together like sensible muslims then perhaps some unity might be able to be restored when all the lies is exposed as lies.

I thought that you can't say this person's going to hell... like say that to an individual person because who are you to be the judge... even if the person dies as a 'kafir' cause you don't know what's in their heart?

So how comes I'm reading things like "it's a shame, they've all gone to hell" isn't that a bit serious to say? Like you can't say that.. can you? I mean you can't judge... or can you judge on what is apparent?

We can say like what Allah says in the Qur'an right, like those that die on shirk, but you can't make a statement like that on an individual person even if they did commit shirk without repenting?

and I know this isn't really and aqeedah question but did the Prophet really get a choice between eternal life and dying? I ask because I heard this in a lecture, and I don't remember any proof.. would like it verifying insha Allah..

Quote :

I thought that you can't say this person's going to hell... like say that to an individual person because who are you to be the judge... even if the person dies as a 'kafir' cause you don't know what's in their heart?

No, if a person dies as a kaafir then you can say he's going to jahannam, there is no harm in that.

Quote :

So how comes I'm reading things like "it's a shame, they've all gone to hell" isn't that a bit serious to say? Like you can't say that.. can you? I mean you can't judge... or can you judge on what is apparent?

Aye we judge by what is apparent, so if a person is a kaafir then it's permissable to tell him that if he don't accept islaam then he'll go to jahannam, but while he's alive you can't say for certain that he will definately go to jahannam because you don't know if he might accept islaam before he dies, but after he dies and if he died a kaafir then there is no harm whatsoever in saying it, after all Allaah says so many times in the Qur'aan, check surah baqarah aayah 39 and 161, and surah aal imraan aayah 91, and there are so many others that i can't begin to list them all.

Quote :

We can say like what Allah says in the Qur'an right, like those that die on shirk, but you can't make a statement like that on an individual person even if they did commit shirk without repenting?

Is fir'awn not a person? haamaan? abu jahl? abu lahb? even abu taalib?

Quote :

and I know this isn't really and aqeedah question but did the Prophet really get a choice between eternal life and dying?

I have not heard of that so i can't help you.

Quote :

and I know this isn't really and aqeedah question but did the Prophet really get a choice between eternal life and dying?

The Prophet sallAllahu aleyhi wassallam delivered a speech at the end of his life in which he said: “Allaah has given a slave the choice between immortality in this world for as long as Allaah wills, or meeting his Lord, and he has chosen to meet his Lord.” This is what he said at the end of his life. Abu Bakr wept, and the people were surprised that Abu Bakr wept at these words. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was the one who was given the choice, and Abu Bakr knew the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) better than any of the people.

A’ishah who said: When the Prophet was healthy, he used to say, “No soul of a Prophet is taken until he has been shown his place in Paradise and then he is given the choice.” When death approached him while his head was on my thigh, he became unconscious and then recovered consciousness. He then looked at the ceiling of the house and said, “O Allah! (with) the highest companions." I said (to myself), “He is not going to choose (to stay with) us.” Then I understood what he meant when he said that to us when he was healthy. The last words he spoke were, "O Allah! (with) the highest companions.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4463; Muslim, 2444.

Is photography shirk... ? At least taking pictures of yourself? What's the opinion of majority of scholars? I kinda did my own research one time and I read it's not allowed... except passport photos etc.. *shrugs* I dunno though..

So what's the final verdict? Better to stay away? Should you delete get rid of photos you have?


You know this statement, I thought it was a bit dodgy... "I put my life on it" is it taking on oath on your life? And you can't do that can you? Is that minor shirk or major shirk? Is it shirk?

you know when someone calls Allah God in stead.. are you allowed to like not like it because Allah's name is Allah and you want Muslims to call Allah by Allah and not God?

Can you tell me if this is correct..

You know you have to love Allah more than anyone/anything else, so say you're afraid to something that'll please Allah because you don't want your parents and people like that to be upset at you, are you loving them more than Allah?

If someone says something a bit... okay they say like "I think Allah has a sense of humour" or... "I think Allah is really funny" how do you respond... no serious, how do you? Because I was put in that position yesterday and I was like inside thinking "woah .." but that's all I could do I was pretty godsmacked, so I never said anything... =( I just waited until they were finished... if they had said something bad I'd have gotten mad and stuff, but.. I didn't know how to respond to this.

I know you can't speak about Allah without knowledge.. so should I try talking to this person about what they said? If so how do I approach it. Also... another thing what happened was when we were talking, we're kinda close we blurt stuff out that's the same at the same time... anyway, so the two times that happened they were like 'jinx' ... Is that not a bit wrong because jinx is like.. =s Unless it's just said random does it make it okay? I'm sorry if it's a silly question, I get worried.. and I never said anything about that too because I wasn't sure..

Quote :

Is photography shirk... ? At least taking pictures of yourself?

It's not shirk and never has been shirk, haraam is very different from shirk.

And your research was correct

Quote :

You know this statement, I thought it was a bit dodgy... "I put my life on it" is it taking on oath on your life? And you can't do that can you? Is that minor shirk or major shirk? Is it shirk?

It depends on what you mean and understand from that, i understand it to be a strong affirmation of the truth, and not an oath, and that is permissable.

Quote :

you know when someone calls Allah God in stead.. are you allowed to like not like it because Allah's name is Allah and you want Muslims to call Allah by Allah and not God?

That's fine, and it's good to do so actually.

Quote :

You know you have to love Allah more than anyone/anything else, so say you're afraid to something that'll please Allah because you don't want your parents and people like that to be upset at you, are you loving them more than Allah?

It looks that way doesn't it?

Quote :

If someone says something a bit... okay they say like "I think Allah has a sense of humour" or... "I think Allah is really funny" how do you respond... no serious, how do you?

You tell the person to go study Aqeedah, because that is undoubtedly haraam to say, in fact to me it looks kufr akbar, because the person is attributing Allaah with the qualities of the creation, and to do that is kufr.

The most important rule in aqeedah that you should always remember is the aayah "laysa kamithlihi shay" (there is no likeness unto Him), so whenever aayaah and ahaadeeth mentions things like hand face etc etc then you should know that it does not mean that Allaah has limbs and so on, to believe that is kufr.

Many a times people speak kufr without realising it, like when telling someone not to do haraam "Allaah will get mad with you", that is outright kufr, the same with saying "Allaah can't stomach it" and other such kufr statements.

Allaah must only be described with those qualities which He has described Himself with, and not with any qualities of the creation.

Quote :

Is that not a bit wrong because jinx is like.. =s Unless it's just said random does it make it okay?

i don't understand what you mean

But Allah can get angry though? Because of the hadith Qudsi:

Hadith Qudsi 1:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:
When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).

(In some translations it's translated as 'anger')

So should I talk to her about it... oh no... I don't like being put in these situations.. I actually feel worried for myself too.. what if I ever said anything like that.. ? ='( What can I do..

and she never knew.. is it still kufr, so the shahada has to be repeated? But she was ignorant.. what about alll the good deeds.. is it all gone? =(

How about the statement what people use 'it's not in your hands, it's in Allah's hands' are you allowed to say that or is that too kufr?

So is photography not allowed then, stronger opinion being you can't take pictures of people?

Quote :

You know you have to love Allah more than anyone/anything else, so say you're afraid to something that'll please Allah because you don't want your parents and people like that to be upset at you, are you loving them more than Allah?

Quote :

It looks that way doesn't it?

How do you fix it? Because what if this thing you wanna do has conflicting opinions, and pleasing your parents is something big too.. is that trying to justify and make excuses? How can you fix it? Are you a huge sinner because of it?