How to convince an ignorant in 10 minutes or less!

The following is taken from al-Firdaws, written by the Admin of the forum:

Assalaamu alikum,

This is a debate happened between me and an ignorant about our beliefs, and Alhamdulillah it was easy to convince him.

Ignorant: You Salafis are Takfeeris, how dare you call the one who says “La ilaha illa Allah” a Kafir?? Do not you fear Allah?? Only Allah knows what is inside people’s heart.. you cannot call anyone a Kafir unless you know what is in their heart, and this is impossible.

Me: Ok, tell me, If someone says: “La ilaha illa Allah” yet he still believes that Jesus is the son of God.. will this be a Muslim?

Ignorant: No, for sure not..

Me: So we realise that the one who has Kufr beliefs is a Kafir, even if he already said the Shahadah.. right?

Ignorant: Yes, that is right.

Me: So.. what about someone who says the Shahadah yet insulted Allah (swt) and Islam.. will this be considered a Muslim?

Ignorant: For sure not.

Me: So we realise that the one who speaks clear Kufr is a Kafir, even if he says the Shahadah, right?

Ignorant: Yes, that is right.

Me: And what about someone who already said the Shahada, yet he prostrates to an idol, and treads on the Qur’an deliberately.. is he a Muslim?

Ignorant: No he is not.

Me: So we realise that the one who perform Kufr action is a Kafir, even if he says the Shahadah, right?

Ignorant: Yes, that is right.

Me: Therefore we realise that not everyone who says “La ilaha illa Allah” is a Muslim.. if he does Kufr, he is a Kafir, and that statement would not benefit him.. So why do you blame us for calling those who fall into Kufr Kuffar?

Ignorant: Then how do you explain the Hadith of Usama bin Zaid (raa) when he killed that man who said “la ilaha illa Allah”?

Me: Did that man show any Kufr after he said that statement?

Ignorant: No.

Me: Then taking it as a proof is invalid.. and let me remind you of the story of Abu Bakr (raa) with the Murtaddeen.. they were saying the Shahadah, praying, fasting.. but did not pay Zakat.. yet ALL the Sahaba called them Murtaddeen.. because they showed Kufr action.

Ignorant: Yes.. (Then it turned to proving that our rulers were doing clear Kufr).

Inshaa'Allah I will post more of these...

yes, please keep it coming - times only gonna get more and more difficult but what we need, every now and then, are doses of emaan-boosters

Takfir? I've seen this word around quite a bit lately, what does it actually mean?

Takfeer is to call someone (a muslim) a Kaafir.

Jazakallahu Khair, but thats totally haram?

And good post Abu Sulayman

It depends and it has conditions.

This is long scholarly debate. http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/MSC060006.pdf

Basically, there are two extremes, one is of calling all people who do small acts of Kufr, as Kaafirs, and the other is not saying anything at all, at someone who even worships an idol.

we should be in the middle. because some people say, for example, if you commit some sins, you are a kaafir!

Here is what Sheikh al - Albaani said (i think he explains it better):

Making Takfeer of Sinners is not Allowed

So every type of sin and specifically what is widespread in this time from what is regarded as permissible actions, such as interest, illegal sexual relations, drinking alcohol amongst them, all of these are kufr (disbelief) of action.

So it is not allowed for us to make Takfeer of the sinners- who have been deceived by some of these sins - just because they have perpetrated a sin and regarded it as permissible actions for themselves! Except if it becomes apparent to us – with certainty – and it is unveiled with what is in the depths of their ownselves that from their Aqeedah they do not prohibit what Allaah and His Messenger have prohibited. So, if we know they have fallen into this opposition with their hearts, then we can judge that they have committed kufr, the kufr of apostasy.

And if we don’t know this, then there is no way for us to judge them with kufr, because we fear we will fall into the threat of the saying of his - SallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam - : “If a man says to his brother: ‘Oh kaffir! Indeed it returns to one of them.’

There are many ahadeeth mentioned with this meaning. I will mention a hadeeth, which is a great evidence. It is in the story of that Companion who killed one of the mushrikeen .
When the mushrik saw that he was about to come under the blow of the sword of the Muslim Companion, he said, “I testify that none is worthy of worship except Allaah!!” The Companion took no interest in that and killed him!! When the news reached the Prophet - SallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam - he disapproved of it severely. The Companion mentioned an excuse that he did not say what he said except from the fear of being killed, but the answer of the Messenger - SallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam - was: “Did you open up his heart?!”

Therefore the kufr of belief does not have a fundamental connection with just actions, but it has a connection with the heart.

And it is not possible for us to know what is in the heart of the faasiq (sinner) or the adulterer or the thief or the one who is a fornicator nor the one who takes interest, etc. Except if he confesses with his tongue what is in his heart. As far as his action is concerned then it is notification that he has opposed the Sharia', with a differing of action. [The Fitnah of Takfeer]


and Allaah knows best

JazakAllah for sharing this with us, very informative! But can you post the story of the following, if you can, please?

Abu Sulayman al 7atimi wrote:

Ignorant: Then how do you explain the Hadith of Usama bin Zaid (raa) when he killed that man who said “la ilaha illa Allah”?

Jundub bin `Abdullah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) dispatched a contingent of the Muslims to a tribe of the polytheists. The two sides met (in combat) at one place. A man among the polytheists was so dashing that, whenever he intended to kill a man from Muslims, he killed him. Amongst the Muslims, too, was a man looking forward to (an opportunity of) his (polytheist's) unmindfulness. He (the narrator) said: We talked that he was Usamah bin Zaid (May Allah be pleased with him). When he raised his sword, he (the soldier of the polytheists) uttered: "La ilaha illallah (There is no true god except Allah).'' But he (Usamah bin Zaid) killed him. When the good news of victory reached Messenger of Allah (PBUH) he asked him (about the events of the battle), and he informed him about the man (Usamah) and what he had done. He (Messenger of Allah (PBUH)) sent for him and asked him why he had killed him. He (Usamah) said, "O Messenger of Allah, he struck the Muslims and killed such and such of them.'' And he named some of them. (He continued): "I attacked him and when he saw the sword he said: `La ilaha illallah.''' Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Did you kill him?'' He (Usamah) replied in the affirmative. The Messenger of Allah then remarked, "What would you do with regard to (the utterance): La ilaha illallah, when it comes (before you) on the Day of Resurrection?'' He (Usamah) said, "O Messenger of Allah! Beg forgiveness for me". He (the Prophet (PBUH)) said, "What would you do with regard to (the utterance): La ilaha illallah, when it comes (before you) on the Day of Resurrection?'' He (Messenger of Allah (PBUH)) added nothing to it but kept repeating, "What would you do with regard to (the utterance): La ilaha illallah, when it comes (before you) on the Day of Resurrection?".
[Sahih Muslim].

Abu Sulayman al 7atimi wrote:

Jundub bin `Abdullah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) dispatched a contingent of the Muslims to a tribe of the polytheists. The two sides met (in combat) at one place. A man among the polytheists was so dashing that, whenever he intended to kill a man from Muslims, he killed him. Amongst the Muslims, too, was a man looking forward to (an opportunity of) his (polytheist's) unmindfulness. He (the narrator) said: We talked that he was Usamah bin Zaid (May Allah be pleased with him). When he raised his sword, he (the soldier of the polytheists) uttered: "La ilaha illallah (There is no true god except Allah).'' But he (Usamah bin Zaid) killed him. When the good news of victory reached Messenger of Allah (PBUH) he asked him (about the events of the battle), and he informed him about the man (Usamah) and what he had done. He (Messenger of Allah (PBUH)) sent for him and asked him why he had killed him. He (Usamah) said, "O Messenger of Allah, he struck the Muslims and killed such and such of them.'' And he named some of them. (He continued): "I attacked him and when he saw the sword he said: `La ilaha illallah.''' Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Did you kill him?'' He (Usamah) replied in the affirmative. The Messenger of Allah then remarked, "What would you do with regard to (the utterance): La ilaha illallah, when it comes (before you) on the Day of Resurrection?'' He (Usamah) said, "O Messenger of Allah! Beg forgiveness for me". He (the Prophet (PBUH)) said, "What would you do with regard to (the utterance): La ilaha illallah, when it comes (before you) on the Day of Resurrection?'' He (Messenger of Allah (PBUH)) added nothing to it but kept repeating, "What would you do with regard to (the utterance): La ilaha illallah, when it comes (before you) on the Day of Resurrection?".
[Sahih Muslim].

JazakAllah Khayr for that