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 Takfir is the duty of the scholars?

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tawhid1
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PostSubject: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:57 pm

A Ghullaat Murji’ah Response: Takfir is a duty of Qadi


Last edited by urban_rose on Thu May 08, 2008 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Post content removed. I still have original post saved if needed.)
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Thu May 08, 2008 6:36 pm

Takfir is not only the duty of scholars, anyway, I went through that site, and they are very deviated, if the Admin please could remove the link or something...I read about these people on al-Firdaws , they are the real Khawaarij of this era (and no I don't mean the Mujahideen), their leader is a man known as Abu Maryam al Kuwaiti, so beware of this crazy Khaariji. They make takfeer on nearly everyone, Usamah, Ayman, Azzam....May Allah save us.
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Thu May 08, 2008 7:53 pm

Ameen and JazakAllah Khayr for noticing this, bro Abu S. If this happens again, please could you notify mods through the 'Report Post' icon, just in case it hasnt been seen Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Fri May 09, 2008 9:52 am

So who is takfir the duty of then?
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Fri May 09, 2008 2:18 pm

It's our duty as well...^^^^
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Fri May 09, 2008 9:10 pm

Excuse me, but where exactly within that article did you have objections to?

Since i have witnessed that these moderators here are jaahil themselves and oppressive and don't even bother to verify anything nor refute the articles i posted, it's best i leave this forum of fitnah as it is of no doubt a forum of freemixing mixed with people who are unfaithful to Ilm.

Also, it may be wise to change the domain name of this forum to "darul jahl/dhulm" as all i see is those who are willing to talk about nonsense (nothing to do with Islam) are welcomed, and those who talk about deen are oppressed.

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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Fri May 09, 2008 9:18 pm

tawhid1 wrote:
Excuse me, but where exactly within that article did yo have objections to?

Since i have witnessed that these moderators here are jaahil themselves and oppressive and don't even bother to verify anything nor refute the articles i posted, it's best i leave this forum of fitnah as it is of no doubt a forum of freemixing mixed with people who are unfaithful to Ilm.

Also, it may be wise to change the domain name of this forum to "darul jahl/dhulm" as all i see is those who are willing to talk about nonsense (nothing to do with Islam) are welcomed, and those who talk about deen are oppressed.

.

Stop throwing the word 'jaahil' around so freely, i specifically said that i have removed the links until i get verification for it. Unfortunately as of yet, i have not been able to do that. However, i do trust Abu Sulayman's opinion and have used it as an initial reference until i acquire more knowledge on it all inshAllah.

If you have seen freemixing going on, there is nothing stopping you from reporting it. Also, if you talk about deen in the right way, you will not get oppressed, but as soon as you quote articles which do not hold place, then there will be refutations, and rightly so.
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Fri May 09, 2008 10:01 pm

You make takfeer on everyone....why do you make takfeer on Ayman & Azzaam?
I don't make takfeer on Qassaam, am I kaafir now?
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Mon May 12, 2008 7:07 pm

sheesh my internet gives me problems and i finaly come back and this is what i have to see.

Quote :
Since i have witnessed that these moderators here are jaahil themselves and oppressive and don't even bother to verify anything nor refute the articles i posted, it's best i leave this forum of fitnah as it is of no doubt a forum of freemixing mixed with people who are unfaithful to Ilm.

I am the one who does the verifying, but since i wasn't here the other admins didn't know what to do, so to be on the safe side they removed it, i'll have them repost it again and then see what to do ith it.

However i'll say in advance, takfir is NOT the duty of the layman, the layman doesn't even know the daleel for making istinja.

But then i guess it boils down to what your definition of 'takfeer' is, if calling then shias kuffaar is takfeer then yeah the layman can make takfeer, but if takfeer is giving a ruling on an individual about something in which there's ikhtilaaf then no takfeer is not for the layman.

anyway can someone repost the article.

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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Mon May 12, 2008 7:38 pm

Here it is...

tawhid1 wrote:
A Ghullaat Murji’ah Response: Takfir is a duty of Qadi

Takfir is a part of kalimat shahadah ‘la ilaha’. With no doubt just as the devoid of rejecting the taghout, will barricade the ‘la ilaha’ part of kalimat shahada from executing; the rejection of taghout begins with making takfir upon the taghout.

Every Muslim must know what invalidates iman and the types of kufr and shirk. For this reason Allah (swt) has explained in His ayah; the path of the kuffar and all types of kufr and shirk; until, we are able to keep distant from them and those who act upon them. “Thus do We explain the signs in detail: that the way of the sinners may be shown up.” (anam 55)

Also the rejection of taghout is a necessity of iman and its wellbeing: “Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects taghout and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks.” (baqara 256) As we have stated before the rejection of taghout necessitates making takfir and keeping distant from it: “For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Tagout" (nahl 36)

Muhammad b. AbdulWahhab had stated: “For the sake of Allah my brothers! Hold on tightly the base of our deen, its prior, its end and its beginning! Learn its meaning, love it, love its ahl, and know them to be your brothers even if they are distant. Make takfir upon the taghout and its helpers, be their enemies. Have enmity to those who love them, those who defend them, those who do not make takfir upon them, and those who say “I am not responsible for what they do” or “Allah did not make me responsible for the things they do”. Individuals as such will have only lied in the name of Allah and will have made slander. Because Allah (awj) has made us responsible to do things against them, has made fard upon us to keep distant from and make takfir on them even if they were our brothers or children.” (Majmuat tawhid)

In another place he has stated: “The rejection of taghout means: the belief that the ibadah made to any other but Allah is invalid, not to perform ibadah to any other but Allah, to have enmity (curse) those which ibadah is performed to other than Allah, to make takfir upon those who perform ibadah to any other but Allah and to be their enemy.” (Majmuat Fatawa wa Ar Risail Ajooba)

Imam Muhammed Ibn Abdil Wahab describes the foundation and principle of the Deen: “The foundation and principle of the Deen of Islam is in two matters:

Firstly: Commanding the worshipping (directing of every type of Ibadah) to Allah (swt) alone without any partner, encouragement upon this, making friendship for its sake, and making Takfir of whosever leaves it.

Secondly: Abandoning Shirk (joining partners) in Ibadah to Allah (swt) and warning from it, being severely harsh upon this, being hostile for its sake and making Takfir of whosoever does it.” (Ad-Duraar As-Saniyyah 2/203)

Here are a few ayahs that explain how the prophets and the mu’min made takfir upon the kafir and how they separated from their path:

Muhammad (saw)
“Say: O unbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.” (Kafiroon)

“If thou dost question them, they declare (with emphasis): "We were only talking idly and in play." Say: "Was it at Allah, and His Signs, and His Messenger, that ye were mocking?" Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.” (tawbah 65-66)

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” (maeda 17)

“They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary."” (maeda 72)

“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity” (maeda 73)

“Oh you who believe! Whoever from among you apostatizes from his
religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him” (maeda 54)

Noah (as)
“But the chiefs of the Unbelievers among his people said: "We see (in) thee nothing but a man like ourselves: Nor do we see that any follow thee but the meanest among us, in judgment immature: Nor do we see in you (all) any merit above us: in fact we thing ye are liars!" He said: "O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it? "And O my people! I ask you for no wealth in return: my reward is from none but Allah: But I will not drive away (in contempt) those who believe: for verily they are to meet their Lord, and ye I see are the ignorant ones!” (Hud 27-29)

Ibrahim (as)
“There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone” (Mumtahina 4)

“Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar: "Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error." (anam 74)

Yusuf (as)
“I have (I assure you) abandoned the ways of a people that believe not in Allah and that (even) deny the Hereafter.” Yusuf 37

Ashab-i Kahf
"These our people have taken for worship gods other than Him: why do they not bring forward an authority clear (and convincing) for what they do? Who doth more wrong than such as invent a falsehood against Allah?” (kahf 15)

Pharaoh, Abu Lahab, Abu Jahl and others were deemed Kaafir in the
Qur'aan and it is therefore obligatory upon every Muslim to affirm this and believe they were disbelievers.

In siyar and the history of Islam there are many uncountable examples regarding making takfir and the separation from the kuffar. Afew of them are listed beneath as an example:

It was reported in the sahihayn that RasulAllah (saw) said about the Khawarij, "Wherever you see them kill them. If I reach their time, I will kill them like the people of 'Aad"

RasulAllah (saw) commanded to execute a man who committed apostasy by marrying the wife of his father.

RasulAllah (saw) said: “Whoever changes his deen, kill him.”

Abu Bakr (ra) fought those who refused to pay him Zakaat during the wars of Riddah and declared them apostates.

These are a few incidents of Umar (ra) and his passion to put takfir directly and to behead for the sake of Islam.

With Hatib ibn Abi Balta'ah (ra) when he attempted to send the letter to the Makkans about the RasulAllah's preparations (saw). With the man who came to the RasulAllah (saw) at Al-Ji'rana after Battle of Hunayn and told him "be just!" With 'Abdullah ibn 'Ubayy ibn Salool when he said "If we return to al-Madinah, the more honored [for power] will surely expel there from the more humble." (63:8 ) Another incident occurred when a Muslim and Jewish man went to the RasulAllah (saw) to settle a dispute; RasulAllah's (saw) opinion sided with the Jew. The Muslim man wanted to get another opinion and went to Umar (ra). After Umar (ra) heard of the man not accepting RasulAllah's (saw) decision, he unsheathed his sword and chopped the man's head off.

Those who claimed that 'Ali (ra) was god were killed and burned alive by 'Ali (ra) himself.

Jahm bin Safwaan, Ibn Dirham, Hallaj, Ibn Arabi were called Kafirs as well as rafidhi Shiites, batinis etc by the salafee saleheen of this ummah. In the same manner it is a well known fact that ulama of Islam put takfir on the deviated governors and the supporters of the Tartars and Fatimids. Ulama of Najd made takfīr of the rulers and supporters of Ottoman Empire, they revolted against them and declared Makkah and the land of Ottomans to be darul-harb.

It must be known that takfir is a hukm of the shariah. All hukm regarding the worldly life and the life in Akhirah are built upon the issues iman and kufr; and takfir is one of the issues of iman and takfir. Many hukm such as walayah, the duty of imam, nikah (marriage), retaliation, blood and diyah, funerals, jurisdictions, war, jihad, al wala and al bara etc. are all constructed on the hukm of iman and kufr; in other words they are all assembled according to whether or not individuals are Muslim or kafir. Only regarding the importance of the issue of the duty of the imam; Imam Gazali states “It is wajeeb for each Muslim to know the condition of the administrator who is the ruler.” (al-Mustasfa)

The explanation of this statement is that takfir is a hukm of shariah. Just like other hukm of shariah, it also carries conditions. As long as these conditions exsist it is permisable to make takfir upon the kuffar. Infact, scholars have clearly stated and described that not making takfir upon the kuffar whose kufr is definite and constant, to have doubts about their path; is deviation in itikad.

Al-Qaadi ‘Ayyaad said: hence we regard as a kafir everyone who follows a religion other than the religion of the Muslims, or who agrees with them, or who has doubts, or who says that their way is correct, even if he appears to be a Muslim and believes in Islam and that every other way is false, he is a kafir (Al-Shifaa’ bi Ta’reef Huqooq al-Mustafaa, 2/1071)

Imam Muhammed Ibn Abdil Wahab gives a place for this matter in his ten nullifiers of Islam. The third nullifier is: Whoever does not –takfir- hold the mushriks to be disbelievers, or has doubts about their disbelief or considers their ways and beliefs to be correct, has committed disbelief. (Mu’allafaat al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, 212, 213)

Shayh Hamed b. Atik stated: “There are many individuals who have not made shirk but they have not stayed distant from the mushrik either. For this reason they are not Muslim, they have not followed the deen the Rasul have informed.” (Sabil in Najati wa’l fiqaq)

How can making takfir be only the duty of the qadi when it is fard upon all members of the ummah and a necessity of iman? The principle of Islam concerning this matter can be summarized as: "We are only supposed to judge according to the zaheer (the outward appearance/apparent/external); as for the Bateen (hidden/internal), then that is not known to anyone except Allah (awj) alone." ‘Umar (ra) explained this issue, “Indeed the people used to be judged according to the revelation during the time of Muhammad (saw) and indeed the revelation has come to an end. So now we only judge you according to whatever the zaheer (external appearance) of your actions is. So whosoever appears to be righteous (Muslim), then we will give him safety and befriend him - and we have no obligation regarding the affairs of his heart (such as love, hatred, Istihlaal), and only Allah (swt) will judge his heart. And whosoever appears to be evil (kafir, murtadd), then we will not give him safety, nor will we trust him - even if he says [verbally] that his heart is righteous (Muslim).” (Bukhari)

Takfir is a hukm of shariah and there are some hukm built upon takfir. An example for this would be the belongings and blood of the individual which takfir is made upon becoming halal. The inheritance (left from the kafir) will not be left to the Muslim but it will be given to the bayt ul mal. And he (the kafir) can not take share of interitance from the Muslim. When he (the kafir) dies funeral salah will not be performed on him and he will not be buried in the Muslim cemetery. For all of these hukm to take place, in darul Islam the duty of takfir belongs especially to the qadi. Infact an individual who has been given the hukm kafir by the scholars can not be treated like a murtad.

However along with all of this just because one does not carry the strength to persue the outcome of takfir upon the kafir it does not necessitate that the kuffar are not made takfir upon. The scholars of fiqh have especially stated that “The possibility is that, due to impossibility it will not be invalidated.” The fact that we do not have the power to prevent these deviations to occur or to punish as a result of deviation, does not mean that it will prevent us from stating these are acts of deviation and to see what they do as deviation. In todays world just because we do not have the power to instigate the hadd (punishments) of Islam, it does not mean that we can not or should not say those who have commited crimes to deserve punishment that they have gone astray and that have sinned and have commited haram.

When we view it from this angle as we stated below, takfir is a hukm of shariah and when the conditions have actualized and the preventions have been lifted, it is a hukm permitted to the Muslims. Just because we do not carry the power to perform the hukm which are built upon takfir (such as punishments) this does not mean that we must keep quite about the kufr which have been performed and it certainly does not mean that we can not make takfir upon those which have commited kufr.


Source: Darultawhid.com

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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Mon May 12, 2008 8:20 pm

The article is fine, i see no problems in it (well actually i do, but on the whole the article isn't bad), the important thing to know is what is the definition of 'takfeer' that's being spoken about in the article, takfeer in this particular article is referring to making takfeer of the kuffaar and mushrikeen, which is indeed an integral part of islam, which is not only a view held by salafis, you can see an example in the statement of imam abu hanifah rahimahullah "whoever doubts the kufr of the shia has himself committed kufr", i'm not going to go any deeper into the issue because then i'll be writing a whole article myself.

I don't know who the author of the article is, i dont know whether he had an ulterior motive or not Allahu a3lam, but in todays world the word 'takfeer' has two definitions,

1: Declaring muskrikeen and kuffaar as kuffaar.
2: Declaring muslims as kuffaar (due to some reason)

the first one is compulsory upon everyone, the second one is not so simple, the second one should actualy be divided into another two,

1: declaring a muslim as a kaafir due to an act in which there is no ikhtilaaf
2: declaring a muslim as a kaafir due to an act in which there is ikhtilaaf

the first one would be things like a muslim leaving islam, or insulting rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam etc, all these things are major acts of kufr in which there's no ikhtilaaf, thus making takfeer of a person guilty of that is no problem.

the second type is things like a muslim not making salaah out of laziness or whatever reason, that is something in which there is lots of ikhtilaaf, therefore it is not permissable to go around making takfeer of a person guilty of that.

you find a lot of people making the above type of takfeer.

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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Mon May 12, 2008 8:28 pm

JazakAllah Khayr for that, Admin Smile

does ikhtilaaf mean 'difference in opinion'?
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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Mon May 12, 2008 8:36 pm

yep.

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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Tue May 13, 2008 2:09 pm

Admin wrote:
in todays world the word 'takfeer' has two definitions,

1: Declaring muskrikeen and kuffaar as kuffaar.
2: Declaring muslims as kuffaar (due to some reason)

the first one is compulsory upon everyone, the second one is not so simple, the second one should actualy be divided into another two,

1: declaring a muslim as a kaafir due to an act in which there is no ikhtilaaf
2: declaring a muslim as a kaafir due to an act in which there is ikhtilaaf

the first one would be things like a muslim leaving islam, or insulting rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam etc, all these things are major acts of kufr in which there's no ikhtilaaf, thus making takfeer of a person guilty of that is no problem.

the second type is things like a muslim not making salaah out of laziness or whatever reason, that is something in which there is lots of ikhtilaaf, therefore it is not permissable to go around making takfeer of a person guilty of that.

Yes. It might be benficial to repost my thread on Ignorance not being an excuse in Usuludeen (foundations of deen). As those who are ignorant of kufr, shirk and tawheed it is kufr to call them Muslim.

But ignorance can be an excuse in matters of furrudeen (secondary matters of deen).

I hope to see it reposted as everyone might benefit from the article inshaAllah.

Any objections to the contents, i would appreciate an explanation inshaAllah with daleel.


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PostSubject: Re: Takfir is the duty of the scholars?   Tue May 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Also i want to add:

Ignorance is not an excuse and would not be forgiven; as it is delinquency in deen. Moreover anything which is a delinquency can not be taken under consideration to be acceptable in deen. Ignorance under no circumstance in usuluddeen is an excuse. Some of the scholars of Islam have only claimed ignorance to be an excuse under some conditions such as the names and attributes of Allah not being known without 'ilm (ex. era of fatrat) because they are numerous. Therefore according to this, the attributes of Allah other than the attributes such as 'ilm and qudrat which are known with aql and fitrah, ignorance is acceptable as an excuse in the names and attributes of Allah which can not be known without ‘ilm (such as hand, face, eye, istiwa etc.). However this excuse does not carry an absolute meaning. The following conditions can be accounted as examples for this; living distant from places where ‘ilm is attainable, such as a stranded mountain or being from among the ahl fatrat. Thus those who read the Qur’an will absolutely come across attributes as such. In matters as such instead of abnegation or denial, taweel can be excusable. Nevertheless, as this will save one from kufr it will not save him from the attribute of being ahl bidah. As it is well known ignorance in furuudeen (the secondary matters of ageedah and the issues of fiqh) is acceptable to be an excuse by most of the Islamic scholars.


So for those who are living in an environment where ilm is not available or are amongst the ahl fatrat, then the hujjah must be established before takfeer is made upon them as Allah does not punish anyone until the proof is established against them as seen from the ayat above.

Allah subhana wata 'ala says:

"...And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger." [17:15]


This is concerning the principles of Takfeer and Punishment not the attribute of 'belief'. So we do not say that everyone is a Muslim until the warning reaches him. Rather the one who has not received the message of Islam will not be punished until the warning reaches him.

And Allaah Knows Best.

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