The general position of the Ahl as-Sunnah is

قال أبو منصور رحمه الله وأما الأصل عندنا في ذلك أن الله تعالى قال ليس كمثله شيء فنفى عن نفسه شبه خلقه وقد بينا أنه في فعله وصفته متعال عن الأشباه فيجب القول بالرحمن على العرش استوى على ما جاء به التنزيل ونفي عنه شبه الخلق بما أضاف إليه، إذ جاء به التنزيل وثبت ذلك في العقل ثم لا نقطع تأويله على شيء لاحتماله غيره مما ذكرنا وإحتماله أيضا ما لم يبلغنا مما يعلم أنه غير محتمل شبه الخلق ونؤمن بما اراد الله به وكذلك في كل أمر ثبت التنزيل فيه نحو الرؤية وغير ذلك يجب نفى الشبه عنه والإيمان بما أراده من غير تحقيق على شيء دون شيء والله الموفق

Imam Abu Mansur Abdul Qahir Al-Baghdadi (429 H) in his famous book Usul-al-Din states:

Our principle regarding this (understanding Allah’s attributes) is that Aļļaah Ta’aala said that He does not resemble anything, so He denied that He has any resemblance to His creation. We have in this regard already clarified that He is in His actions and attributes greatly above having a like (such as being in a place or direction, as Abu Mansur stated earlier in this book.) For this reason one must say “Ar-Raĥmaanu ˆala-l-ˆArsħi-stawaa” (Taha, 5) as it came in the revelation, and deny that He has any resemblance to creation in what has been ascribed to Him. This is because it came in the revelation, and it was affirmed by the sound mind (i.e. “istawa” without Him being in a place, direction or location is not judged by the mind as impossible.) Then we do not assign any interpretation to it with certainty, because its actual meaning might be something else of the possibilities we have mentioned, or something different from what has reached us of meanings that do not involve ascribing to Aļļaah a resemblance to His creation. So we believe in the actual meaning of the aayah, and this is the way to deal with anything that has been confirmed as revelation, such as seeing Aļļaah, in which we must deny any resemblance to creation, and believe in the actual meaning, without authenticating a specific meaning over other (acceptable) meanings.

And Allah is the Creator of the ability to obey Him (Kitab-al-Tawhid 74).

References:

–Abu Mansur Abdul Qahir Al-Baghdadi (429 H). Usul-al-Din. Istanbul, Turkey: Daar Al-Funuun Al-Turkiyah, 1346/1928. Beirut, Lebanon: Dar Al-Kotob Al-ilmiyah, 1981/1401.

–Abu Mansur Al-Maturidi (333 AH). Kitab-al-Tawhid. Turkey: Markaz al Buhuth al Islamiyyah, Waqf Diyanah Turkiyah.

Shaykh Abu Adam al Naruiji has this posted on his blog and he continues and states:

Surah Taha, 5; its pronunciation is: Al-Rahman `ala l-`Arsh istawa. If someone translated this statement literally, he would say: Al-Rahman (The Merciful) `ala (on) Al-`Arsh (The Throne) istawa (established Himself); “The Merciful established Himself on the throne”.

This is not the meaning of the statement, however, and the Arabic Language is not limited to this meaning. Rather, the verb “istawa” in the Arabic language has some 14 different meanings. Moreover, the word Al-`Arsh does not necessarily mean “throne”, it could also mean “dominion”, and some of the Salaf said that. Abdul Qahir Al-Baghdadi said in his book Usul-al-Din, in summary: “Our colleagues differed regarding this āyah. Some said that it is among the ayahs that are Mutashabihat whose meaning is not known by other than Allah, and this is the saying of Malik (and Abu Mansur Al Maturidi, as seen above). Others said that istawa is something that Allah did to the `Arsh that He called istawa, and this is the saying of Abul-Hasan Al-Ash`ari. Others again said that istawa means that He is attributed with aboveness over the `Arsh without contact (i.e. in status, not physical aboveness.) The correct saying in our view, is that Al-`Arsh in this Ayah means the Dominion and istawa is the Dominion’s action, meaning that the Dominion did not settle in equilibrium for anyone but Him (Usul-al-Din 112-113).”

(End of quote)

There is a hadith of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) which is recorded in Sahih Muslim:

O Allah, You are the first: there is nothing before You; and You are the last: there is nothing after You. You are the Manifest (al-Zahir): there is nothing above You. You are the Hidden (al-Batin): there is nothing below You.

and Sayyadina Ali (May Allah be Pleased with Him) states in a Sahih Athar:

تفسير مدارك التنزيل وحقائق التأويل/ النسفي
قول علي رضي الله عنه: الاستواء غير مجهول والتكييف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة لأنه تعالى كان ولا مكان فهو على ما كان قبل خلق المكان لم يتغير عما كان.

“al-Istiwa is not unknown, and the modality is altogether inconceivable. To affirm it is obligatory and to ask questions about it is an innovation, this is because Allah was, when there was nothing, and He created place before there was a place, and He is in no need for a place”.

(Reported in Tafsir Madaarik al-Tanzeel wa Haqaa’iq al-Ta’weel by an-Nasafi, under surah Taha (20) ayat (5))


I hope that helps in outlining the position of the Ahl as-Sunnah.

And with Allah is all Success.

Copied from al-ghazalli on ummah.com

No I don't understand it...

I get confused with big words..

Quote:

This is not the meaning of the statement, however, and the Arabic Language is not limited to this meaning. Rather, the verb “istawa” in the Arabic language has some 14 different meanings. Moreover, the word Al-`Arsh does not necessarily mean “throne”, it could also mean “dominion”, and some of the Salaf said that. Abdul Qahir Al-Baghdadi said in his book Usul-al-Din, in summary: “Our colleagues differed regarding this āyah. Some said that it is among the ayahs that are Mutashabihat whose meaning is not known by other than Allah, and this is the saying of Malik (and Abu Mansur Al Maturidi, as seen above). Others said that istawa is something that Allah did to the `Arsh that He called istawa, and this is the saying of Abul-Hasan Al-Ash`ari. Others again said that istawa means that He is attributed with aboveness over the `Arsh without contact (i.e. in status, not physical aboveness.) The correct saying in our view, is that Al-`Arsh in this Ayah means the Dominion and istawa is the Dominion’s action, meaning that the Dominion did not settle in equilibrium for anyone but Him (Usul-al-Din 112-113).”

I read another thread on here about Where Allah is.. It wasn't this one... where's that thread gone? It wasn't the other one in this section either..

No it was another... I read it, it made sense aaages ago... now that thread wasn't on this forum? Where did I read it.... =/ It was you, you made the thread, I remember.

Okay so.. can you say Allah is above His throne? Or is that restricting? Shall I forget it and not think too much on the subject now? =o

Oh I really wanna read that thread again because it made sense and it was easy to understand..

It's conflicting because in books like kitaab at-tawhid and kitaabs like that, they say that we understand the istiwaa of Allah literally without asking how or likening to the creation. And that's it, simple dimple, no more no less. I'm not reading these kitaabs by myself, I wouldn't just teach myself, that's a bit silly because I'd get it all wrong.

I want to still make a thread on ummah to have a discussion between salafis and ash'aris on this particular topic Inshaa Allaah.

I found it...

http://darulilm.forumotion.com/aqeedah-f30/how-should-a-muslim-respond-to-where-allah-almighty-is-t707.htm

=o

It was right in this section under my nose and I couldn't find it. =/

everything's created other than Allah
Rememeber one golden rule: Allah is nothing like His creation
that means time space direction ect are all created
that menas Allah existed before they were creation
so he doesn't need, or isn't restricted, by the laws of creation
so to isolate Allah to one set time/place/direction destroys the very essence of God- that he is nothing like his creation

so if some1 asks whereis God? Answer, Allah is wherever Allah is (Allah knows best) to restrict him to the laws of creation makes God imperfect, and no one would worship an imperfect being.

Why make things complicated when Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an where he is?

^ hey you know i found an interesting thing in sayd al khaatir of imaam ibn al-jawzy, you oughta read it sometime, send me your email address and i'll email it to you cos i might not be around again until next month.

Anyhow, in regards to your question, if we have to follow that then what will you say about the aayah wa huwa ma'akum ayna maa kuntum? Is that not Allaah also telling you where he is?

So why are you making ta'weel of it? you claim ta'weel is wrong yet you're doing it right now

I think thats what I read in ibn Katheer

So what do atharis believe where Allah is?

Above the 'Arsh....



The beliefs of the Mu'tazilah, Asha'irah, Maturidis etc are all misguided....

I remember someone said it's similar to salafi so then how comes Admin you're being funny and everything... =/

And I remember something about that ayah from something, ta'weel has to be done cause Allah already mentioned where He is. If you take the literal meaning it would go against the istiwaa ayah... right?


Don't slaughter me >_>

But then a person could say 'I can make ta'weel on the istiwaa ayah but not this one' BUT the understanding of the salaf of these ayaat is what you go with... hah, alright sorry, I don't know..

And the last part I didn't hear it, I just assumed that's what you'd do.. cause it's Qur'an + sunnah + salaf as saleh... + tabi'een = no doubt.

So if the salaf understood the ayah about Allah's istiwaa as literal without asking how or likening then that's our understanding too.. right?

Man you put me on the spot.

But alhamdulillah I answered correctly, I just am left confused. =/

Admin wrote:

Quote: So what do atharis believe where Allah is? The atharis do not believe in asking such questions, a person is mubtadi' for asking such a thing, besides "where" is a place, but anyway the position of the atharis is as stated at the end of my first post.

Are you saying that we can't ask that? I thought you can only not as 'how'