Questions...

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:35 pm

When I read the Noor part I thought 'Brelwi' ....?

Anyway Admin you said Allah is not physically above the 'Arsh, did the Salaf agree with this view?

_________________
For Allah ('azza wajal) is above His Throne, above His Heavens, separate from His creation, so whoever doesn't know Him like this, then he doesn't know His God Whom he worships (ad-Darimi in 'ar-Rad alal-Jahmiyyah).

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:37 pm

Admin what do you say concerning the hands of Allah, his eyes etc. ?

_________________
For Allah ('azza wajal) is above His Throne, above His Heavens, separate from His creation, so whoever doesn't know Him like this, then he doesn't know His God Whom he worships (ad-Darimi in 'ar-Rad alal-Jahmiyyah).

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:37 pm

You have to affirm them because Allah says so in the Qur'an right? But you can't ask how they are..

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:38 pm

Where'd you get that from? Rubeyes

If a so called 'molvi' says ta'weel is tahreef then that molvi is a jaahil, lemme give you an example of ta'weel,

in the qur'aan, surah qalam, ayah 42 i think, Allaah says "yawma yukshafu 'an saaq", the english translation says "on the day when the shin will be laid bare", hadhrat abdullah ibn abbbaas radhiallaahu anhu explains the aayah differently and says that the term "yukshafu 'an saaq" is a term which is used for a severe thing, in this case the severe thing is the day of Qiyaamah, that's ta'weel.

Ta'weel gone wrong is when a person says the yadd of Allaah means power, that is making Ibtaal of a sifah, however to say in one paticular place that yadd here can mean power then there's no harm in that.

Tahreef on the other hand is changing the qur'aan, you get two types, tahreef ma'nawi and tahreef lafzi, tahreef ma'nawi is what so many people are doing today when they change jihaad in the qur'aan to mean other things besides fighting, tahreef lafzi is changing the actual wording of the qur'aan, as how the jews used to do.

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“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:39 pm

Ibn As-Sahaaba wrote:

When I read the Noor part I thought 'Brelwi' ....?

Anyway Admin you said Allah is not physically above the 'Arsh, did the Salaf agree with this view?

So you believe Allaah exists in a place?

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:40 pm

Nooo noo he never said that.. I was trying to figure something out when someone asked a question and they mentioned ta'weel.. =o sorry.. but the definition of tahreef is correct right?

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:41 pm

Ibn As-Sahaaba wrote:

Admin what do you say concerning the hands of Allah, his eyes etc. ?

Yadullaahi laysa ka aydeenaa.

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:41 pm

Hey you can't speak in Arabic in front of me because I don't understand it. =/

and okay I'm confused about what you're saying about where Allah is.. =o

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:43 pm

Nisaa wrote:

You have to affirm them because Allah says so in the Qur'an right? But you can't ask how they are..

Absolutely thumbs up

However on the topic of affirmation, i gotta make a thread on ummah about it, you see the salafis say the salaf made tafweedh al kayf, whereas an ash'ari told me that the salaf made tafweedh al ma'na, so i want both groups to give me their proofs for their views so i can see.

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:46 pm

I don't know the difference between the two..

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:49 pm

Quote:

but the definition of tahreef is correct right?

Depends on what you understand from it, because i see two possible meanings for it.

Quote:

Hey you can't speak in Arabic in front of me because I don't understand it. =/

Sorra baaj, ah won't do it again thumbs up

Quote:

and okay I'm confused about what you're saying about where Allah is.. =o

Allaah exists without a place, because Allaah is not like the creation, creations exists in place, and place itself is a creation, so if you say that Allaah exists in a place then you are giving Allaah a shape, after all to exist in a place you must have a size of some sort, plus you're negating the Aayah where Allaah says "there is no likenes unto Him" if you say that Allaah exists in a place, and so on the argument goes.

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:49 pm

Quote:

Yadullaahi laysa ka aydeenaa.

Saheeh...

Anta Ash'ari fil Aqeedah?

_________________
For Allah ('azza wajal) is above His Throne, above His Heavens, separate from His creation, so whoever doesn't know Him like this, then he doesn't know His God Whom he worships (ad-Darimi in 'ar-Rad alal-Jahmiyyah).

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:52 pm

Quote:

I don't know the difference between the two..

Tafweedh al ma'na is to affirm the attribute and leave its meaning (and howness) unto Allaah.

Tafweedh al kayf is to affirm the attribute and give it a meaning, but leave the howness of it to Allaah.

Does that make sense or should i explain further?

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:53 pm

Ibn As-Sahaaba wrote:

Quote:

Yadullaahi laysa ka aydeenaa.

Saheeh...

Anta Ash'ari fil Aqeedah?

I'm not quite sure just yet, only when i've studied all there is to know about aqeedah will i see if i fit into a group.

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:54 pm

Ah.. I see..

But give me an example for each..

You know I only know literal.. like I didn't know there were two kinds.. like what you said for tahreef too.. =o Is that knowledge someone like me should have?

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:57 pm

Quote:

So you believe Allaah exists in a place?

It is proven in the Qur’an and Sunnah and by the ijmaa’ of the salaf of this ummah that Allah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that, He is above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him.

Saying that Allaah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with use by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the ayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50]

most of the mufassireen said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

It was narrated that Ibn Mas’ood said: Between the first heaven and the one above it is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between each of the heavens is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the seventh heaven and the Kursiy is (a distance of) five hundred years. Between the Kursiy and the water is (a distance of) five hundred years, and the Throne is above the water. Allaah is above the Throne, and nothing whatsoever of your deeds is hidden from Him. (narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawheed, p. 105; by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asmaa’ wa’l-Sifaat, p. 401).

_________________
For Allah ('azza wajal) is above His Throne, above His Heavens, separate from His creation, so whoever doesn't know Him like this, then he doesn't know His God Whom he worships (ad-Darimi in 'ar-Rad alal-Jahmiyyah).

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:43 pm

Quote:

It is proven in the Qur’an and Sunnah and by the ijmaa’ of the salaf of this ummah that Allah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that, He is above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him.

I would just like to see the proof from the books of the salaf or the khalaf up till 3 centuries back, which says that Allaah is physically (bidhaatihi) above the 'arsh.

Because Imaam Abdul Qaahir al Baghdaadi who passed away in 429 a.h states that there is Ijmaa' that Allaah exists without a place, here's a scan in of the page,

_________________
“There is no worse calamity for knowledge and its people than when outsiders intrude. They are ignorant, but presume to know. They cause trouble yet think that they are helping.” - Imam Ibn Hazm Rahimahullah

Subject: Re: Questions... Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:54 pm

Admin wrote:

That translation is not good, Allaah does not get amazed, amazed is a word that's no befitting to use for Allaah, atleast the way i understand it anyhow.

These is all what I have on it:

Another hadith: Your Lord is amazed at a youth which doesn’t have any desires or any passions to do evil (paraphrased) What does the word amazed mean over here? it has two meanings

Allah is amazed in the sense that Allah is ignorant. That is the incorrect understanding
Allah is amazed in the sense that this person has done something that is unlike to what his peers do. This is the correct understanding and we affirm this literally.

But the thing is I still don't understand it.. so I was wondering if you could explain it to me? I understand the incorrect understanding, that's logical because Allah knows everything and the first meaning would have to be incorrect. But maybe you're right, maybe the word amazed isn't right and that's why it is confusing me... what word would be accurate?

Subject: Re: Questions... Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:20 pm

Quote:

I would just like to see the proof from the books of the salaf or the khalaf up till 3 centuries back, which says that Allaah is physically (bidhaatihi) above the 'arsh.

‘Ali ibn al-Hasan ibn Shaqeeq, the shaykh of al-Bukhaari, said:

I said to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak: How do we know our Lord?

He said: [He is] in the seventh heaven above His Throne. According to another version: [He is] above the seventh heaven above His Throne, and we do not say as the Jahamiyyah do, that He is here on earth.

That was said to Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and he said: This is how we understand it.

Imam al-Dhahabi said, commenting on this report:

This is saheeh and proven from Thaabit ibn al-Mubaarak and Ahmad (may Allaah be pleased with them both). The words ‘in heaven’ in another report explain to you that what he meant by saying ‘in heaven’ was ‘above the heaven’, as in the other saheeh report which he wrote to Yahya ibn Mansoor al-Faqeeh.
Al-‘Arsh 2/189

We will quote here the words of the scholars which explained and clarified this matter:

Al-Haafiz Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

With regard to the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): “Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven [fi’l-sama’] (Allaah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, and then it should quake” [al-Mulk 67], what it means is the One Who is above the heaven, i.e., above the Throne. The word fi [in the phrase fi’l-sama’ (translated above as ‘over the heaven’); fi literally means ‘in’] may mean ‘ala [above, over]. Haven’t you seen the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So travel freely (O Mushrikoon) for four months (as you will) throughout the land [fi’l-ard]” [al-Tawbah 9], meaning on the land; and the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning): “and I will surely, crucify you on the trunks of date palms [fi judhoo’ al-nakhl]” [Ta-Ha 20].

Al-Tamheed, 7/130

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The salaf, the imams and all the scholars of the Sunnah, when they say that He is above the Throne, He is in heaven above all things, do not mean that there is something which contains Him or surrounds Him, or that He has a location, or that there is something that encompasses Him. Exalted be He above that. Rather He is above all things, He has no need of all things, and all things are in need of Him. He is above all things, He is the One Who carries the Throne and its bearers by His power and might. All created beings are in need of Him, but He has no need of the Throne or of any created being.

With regard to what it says in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, “Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven [fi’l-sama’]…?” [al-Mulk 67] and so on, some people may understand the word heaven as being the same as the created heaven on high or the Throne and what is beneath it, so they say that His words “in heaven (fi’l-sama’)” mean that He is above the heaven, as the words “and I will surely, crucify you on the trunks of date palms [fi judhoo’ al-nakhl]” [Ta-Ha 20] mean on the trunks of date palms, and the words “So travel freely (O Mushrikoon — see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land[ fi’l-ard]” [al-Tawbah 9] mean on the land.

There is no need for that; rather the word sama’ (often translated as heaven) refers to what is up high, and does not apply to any specific thing. So the words fi’l-sama’ [translated above as ‘in heaven’] apply to that which is up high as opposed to being low or down.

He is high and the highest, and He is the Highest of the high; there is nothing beyond the Most High, may He be glorified and exalted.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (16/100-101)

You must have heard of this Hadeeth about the young slave girl, to whom the Prophet said: "Where is Allaah?" She said: "In heaven" He asked, "Who am I?" She said, "The Messenger of Allaah." So he said to her master: "Set her free, for she is a believer."

This young girl was uneducated, as many are, and she was a slave, but she knew that her Lord is above heaven. Some misguided people deny that Allaah is above heaven, and say, "He is neither above nor below; neither to the right nor to the left. He is everywhere!" SubhaanAllah!

Heck, even Fir'awn, the enemy of Allaah who disputed with Musa about his Lord (forget this Muslim girl), told his minister Haamaan : "O Haamaan! Build me a tower that I may arrive at the ways, - the ways of the heavens, and I may look upon the god of Musa . . ." [Ghaafir 40-37]

So this is why the Salaf used to say: "We affirm Allah's Attributes :

. without Ta'teel - denying the meaning
. without Tahreef - distorting the meaning
. without Tashbeeh - likening to the creation
. without Takyeef - asking how?"

Abu Bakr (radhi allahu anhu): Abdullah Ibn Umar (radhi allahu anhu) reported: “When the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) was taken (passed away). Abu Bakr (radhi allahu anhu) entered and kissed his (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) forehead and said: “May my father and mother be sacrificed on you! You were good in life and in death.” Then he remarked: “He who worshiped Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam), then Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) is dead. (But) he, who worships Allah, then Allah is above the sky, He lives and does not die. [Reported by ad-Daarimee in ar-Radd ‘alal Jahmiyyah, with a hasan isnaad.]

Imam Malik (d.179H): Abdullah Ibn Naafi reported that Malik Ibn Anas (rahimahullah) said: “Allah is above the sky and His Knowledge is in every place, not being absent from anything.” [Reported by Abdullah Ibn Ahmad in As-Sunnah (p.5), Aboo Dawood in al-Masaa’il (p.263), Al-Aajuree in ash-Sharee’ah (p. 289) and al-Laalikaa’ee (1/92/2).]

Imam Muhammad Ibn Idrees ash-Shafi’ee (d. 204H): Abu Thawr and Abu Shuaib both reported that ash-Shafi’ee said: “The saying which I found and hold regarding the Sunnah, those which I have seen Sufyan, Malik and others believing in are; ‘the testification, ‘None has the right to be worshiped but Allah and Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) is the Messenger of Allah’, Allah is above His Throne over the Heavens, He draws near to His creation as He wishes and descends to the lowest Heaven as He wishes....” [ Mukhtasar al-’Uluww, by adh-Dhahabi]

Imam Ahmad Ibn Hambal (d. 241H): It was said to Abu Abdullah (Imam Ahmad): “Allah is above the seventh Heaven, over His Throne, separate from His creation. His Power and Knowledge are in every place.” He said, “Yes, He is above the Throne and His Knowledge is in every place.” [Reported by al-Khallaal in al-Mukhtasar.]

Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah writes, ‘the early generations of Muslims and their Imams were in complete and unanimous agreement that the Lord is separate and distinct from His creation.’ [‘Al-Furqaan bayna Awliya ar-Rahmaan wa-Awliya ash-Shaytaan’ by Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah on p.111.]

Also Ibn Abdul Barr said: "Ahl us-Sunnah are agreed in affirming all the Sifaat (Attributes) which are related in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, having eemaan (faith) in them and understanding them alal-haqeeqah (in a real sense), not alal-majaaz (metaphorically)." [At-Tamheed of Ibn Abdul-Barr (7/145) ]

Abdul-Qaadir al-Jeelaanee said: "It is essential to carry the attribute of Allaah al-Istiwaa (Allaah's Ascending) upon its apparent sense - without ta'weel, and that He ascended by His Dhaat (self) over the Throne. Istiwaa does not mean sitting or touching - as the Mujassimah and Karraamiyyah say. Nor does it mean uluww (grandeur and highness) - as the Ash'ariyyah say; nor does it mean isteelaa (conquering and dominating over) - as the Mu'tazilah say. None of this is related in the Sharee'ah. Neither has this been related by any one of the Salaf us-Saalih (Pious Predecessors) from the Sahaabah and the Taabi'een, nor from the Ashaabul-Hadeeth (Scholars of Hadeeth). Rather, it is related from them that they carried the meaning of Istiwaa with its apparent meaning." [Al-Ghuniyat ut-Taalibeen (1/50) of Abdul Qaadir al-Jeelaanee. ]

Al-Khattaabee said: "The position of the Salaf (the Pious Predecessors) with regard to the Sifaat (Attributes of Allaah) is to affirm them as they are alaa dhaahir (with their apparent meaning), negating any tashbeeh (resemblance) to them, nor takyeef (asking how they are)." [Al-Ghuniyah an Kalaam wa Ahlihi - as quoted in Mukhtasir al-Uluww by adh-Dhahabi (no.137). ]

Imaam at-Tirmidhee said: "It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) to the Attributes of Allaah, and our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: "Affirm these narrations, have eemaan (faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how." The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth: "Leave them as they are, without asking how." Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from the Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh! However, Allaah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-Yad (Hand), as-Sama' (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta'weel of these aayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: "Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand" - they say that Hand means the Power of Allaah." [Sunan at-Tirmidhee (3/24) ]

And this suffices I think (?)

Wallahu A3lam

_________________
For Allah ('azza wajal) is above His Throne, above His Heavens, separate from His creation, so whoever doesn't know Him like this, then he doesn't know His God Whom he worships (ad-Darimi in 'ar-Rad alal-Jahmiyyah).

Subject: Re: Questions... Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:25 pm

What's the source.. like what website or book?